A commenter recently posted on my discussion of the fall and redemption here. It is a long comment, but I just want to comment on one part of it here. Commenter Steve says:
I have come to the point of belief and faith in this God, so my pursuit is to understand His infiniteness in my finiteness. There could be a whole different explanation that makes total sense to you or I but we just haven’t thought of it yet. To say with confidence that this is all wrong is to have a certain amount of pride in your (and humanity’s) level of intelligence and thought. It is always easy to prove something “wrong” through lack of understanding a reality that is beyond you. This isn’t personal, talk to me about quantum physics and I could with confidence say certain things are wrong, simply because that experience is beyond me.
If a characteristic of God as stated in the Bible doesn’t seem correct or to make sense to me (or you), it may be my (mis)understanding of how an eternal God exists and thinks, that is at fault, rather than God Himself who is whacked out.
I have two comments on this. The first is the common suggestion that not believing in God is being proud or implies some high level of certainty (in the rest of the comment, Steve seems to think I believe in some God but am struggling with various dogmas. I do not believe in the Bible or God at all). These believers don’t believe in Allah, or the Greek Gods, or the Hindu Gods, or the various Budhist dieties. Isn’t it prideful for them to deny these Gods? And for the Christian God (or whichever God they believe), they claim to know things about his nature, like that he is part of a trinity, and things about what he likes (keeping the sabbath holy, what sex acts we should do). They claim great knowledge. All I say is that there is no more reason for me to believe in God than in pink unicorns. I admit my ignorance and don’t claim to have any special knowledge.
The second comment is how Steve’s comments are an argument from ignorance. The appeal to the mystery of God is always a cop out, the end argument when logic fails. A person can defend any God, with any inconsistencies or any sort. When you eventually get to the point that you really don’t have an answer, you can just say God is so complex and mysterious and our humble brains can’t possibly understand it. There is absolutely nothing that can’t be defended that way. I am not being proud to demand a minimal level of coherence to the concepts of God. If someone was defending the existence of Zeus, and every time a problem was found with this God, he just said Zeus is mysterious and beyond our comprehension, would a Christian find this argument convincing? If a Christian doctrine, such as the fall and redemption, is completely illogical and arbitrary, you can’t just say we don’t understand it so accept it. It would make more sense to admit our ignorance is great enough that even having such a doctrine in the first place is the pinnacle of pride. If the doctrine is too complex or mysterious to make sense, how about we just do without the doctrine?
September 19, 2008 at 4:37 pm |
I appreciate your points.
I did not mean to assume your belief foundations. If my purpose was to convince you that my belief was right and yours was wrong, I was in error. My own pride gets in the way sometimes.
I understand it as this: that my personal belief (like yours) is based on my experiences, my upbringing, my intelligence, by many factors. I have come to a place where I have rooted my faith in following Jesus Christ and His teachings, and that is where I stand. Are there things beyond my understanding -yes (as there are in yours). Is there pride in taking a stand? In a sense yes, but it is not a pride that says, “I am better than you because of what I believe.” It is a sense of I have found what I believe to be true.
The pride that is wrong is the one that says, “You have to believe what I do or you will be punished/persecuted, etc.” Every religion (including atheistic ones like communism) has commited grievious crimes against fellow man, Christianity included. I believe in personal rights as far as they don’t infringe on another’s personal rights. You are free to believe as you do (as I am) and should be able to do it with out fear. I believe in an eternal God. I also believe that I can’t change what you belive, only God does that. My concern that drives me to respond on your blog is that I believe you are missing out on something, But if you reject it that is your choice. I understand you are not rejecting me, but my beliefs, my God, and that is your choice.
In the interest of dialogue, then, one has to talk about one’s position as truth (for that is what we believe) and use that as a starting point for understanding the questions and experiences that come our way. You blog about all the difficulties you have with my faith. I agree many people live the “Christian” life without really understanding or following the truths it contains. Christians of all people should be peace-makers and people of love. What is it that drives humans to fight against each other? In India in 2 different areas there is vast persecution going one where the Hindus are killing and burning Christians and all they have. We politicize our beliefs and end up doing great injustice in the name of them. Look at what China is doing to its environment; the Crusades, terrorism, racial issues, poverty. Of all the political systems there are, it seems communism is close, except it never works, because of the “weakness” of men going after power and money.
I was also talking about ignorance on both our part. You expect a world totally understood by your mind, and ethics, and science. I have issues of the violence and barbarianism of man that humanism doesn’t answer adequately. I was reading of how tribes and villiages fought and dealt with each other in Papua New Guinea. I read the stories in our daily newspapers and I see on an individual level there is much more to life than meets the eye.
There is more to life than what we see – I am convinced of that. My pursuit of that has led me to where I am today.