I had a strong response before when I asked for clarification on some doctrine, so maybe I can try again. I don’t understand the whole salvation by faith/works thing. Many Christians say that salvation depends on faith alone, which seems completely irrational to me, if there was a God (I don’t believe there is).
I know that the New Testament includes passages supporting both views. The Jerusalem Christians, lead by James, believed that following the law was most important. On the other hand, Paul insisted that following the law isn’t needed and faith in Jesus is the only thing needed for salvation. The writings of Paul and his followers dominate the New Testament, so that view is the main view, but there three or four books that suggest that faith alone is insufficient for salvation. I was raised Catholic, and the Catholics tend to say both good works and faith are needed for salvation, although in my 12 years of Catholic school, the point wasn’t emphasized much.
I know that most Protestants tend instead to say that it is faith alone and emphasize this a lot. What I don’t get is how this can seen to be morally justifiable. If a person lives a completely upright and moral life, but they don’t believe in Jesus, they are damned. If someone else lived a terrible life, but dies believing in Jesus, they are saved. It also seems that the only time faith matters is death. If a person believed for 70 years but then loses his faith for a year and dies, he is damned, but someone who didn’t believe until their last year is saved. Why is belief at that moment more important than the other 70 years?
I don’t really understand why faith would be that important at all, actually. Why would God put so much importance on believing things without evidence? Why is faith even considered a virtue? Why would he put faith as more important than how you treat others? It seems at best like a very egotistical God. Of course one answer to this is simply because that’s what God said. God said you need faith to be saved, so you do. Who are we to determine his logic? That doesn’t change the fact that the whole thing seems very arbitrary and it gives God a character that doesn’t exactly make me want to worship him. If he were a person, I would definitely avoid someone like that.
Understand that I don’t believe there is salvation at all, so I am not asking to be convinced that I need faith. I don’t have it. I’m not trying to figure out what scriptures really say or anything like that. I just want to know how salvation based on faith alone can be viewed by anyone as just in any sense.
August 3, 2008 at 5:21 pm |
Why would faith be needed for salvation?
so none of us could boast falsely as to what was given undeserved and freely to us.. yet so many still do.
August 3, 2008 at 5:35 pm |
I’m not sure I understand this or its connection to faith. It seems you are describing humility, not faith.
August 3, 2008 at 5:47 pm |
Faith cannot work without humility.. for pride is a sin.
August 3, 2008 at 7:30 pm |
OK, so you again emphasize we need humility. But why do we need the faith part? Why not just humility–that gets rid of the pride and we wouldn’t feel like we could boast about what we have. Even if you can’t have faith without humility, you certainly can have humility without faith.
Actually, I don’t see how faith involves humility. Which is more humble, seeing that there isn’t enough evidence to answer something and saying “I don’t know” or seeing there is insufficient evidence and saying “I know”, as if your own will can make something true. Admitting ignorance is humility.
If faith is believing something without evidence, why specifically is that a virtue, and one that should lead to salvation above all other virtues?
September 21, 2008 at 5:46 am |
Because salvation is an act of Grace, not merit. “Works” reveal faith, but they don’t save. The Bible says, “How can a man have faith and yet not love a brother?” The New Covenant does not support works without faith, or faith unproven by works.
September 21, 2008 at 7:15 pm |
Are you saying that good works always require faith? I do good works without faith, so they do not reveal faith in me. You answer my question a little, by basically defining faith without works as not being true faith. Therefore, you really need both faith and works. It is more honest to admit that rather than define faith as including works. You still leave unanswered question of why faith is even considered a virtue. Why does God care? Why does God want us to not use reason if he gave us reason? To me, faith is a vice. If we don’t know, it is better to say we don’t know rather than pretend we do.
I go back to one of the first questions I asked in this blog–how can we determine true statements from false, based on faith? How do we make our faith virtuous, but faith in another God a vice?
It seems to me that whenever people try to answer the question I asked in this post, they do so by redefining faith–saying that faith is humility, faith includes works, faith implies submission. Then lets talk about humility, works, and submission, not faith. What specifically is good about faith, defined as believing something without evidence?
October 14, 2008 at 5:23 pm |
I said “faith” requires “works”, not the other way around. “Works” does not add to the “faith”, but results from the faith.
Faith in general is believing in something bigger than yourself, in something outside of yourself. In the Christian sense it is understanding that God is who He says He is not just in blind obedience, but as a response to several things, which includes personal experience and historical records and interactions. The part about believing in the unseen as the singular definition of “faith” is not the whole experience and just touches it superficially. I have faith in God not just because someone told me to, but because I have tried and tested it in my life, studied where it came from and the records it contains, and have found what I consider truth.
Why is faith a virtue? One reason is because it does go beyond one’s self. At the heart of faith is openness and understanding, not selfishness and pride. Of what virtue is there in only believing in what you can see and touch? The only “truth” we would have would be isolated to our own experiences.